Philadelphia Luxury Real Estate: How Brett Rosenthal Takes Over His Market Through Local Storytelling
with Brett Rosenthal
Philadelphia Luxury Real Estate: How Brett Rosenthal Takes Over His Market Through Local Storytelling
Most agents think the path to a luxury real estate business runs through expensive listings, polished open houses, and a fat advertising budget. Brett Rosenthal built one of Philadelphia’s most recognizable real estate brands by doing something far simpler and far harder to copy: he tells stories about his city. A top-producing Compass agent and HGTV-featured realtor, Brett works with high-end buyers and savvy investors across one of America’s most historically rich — and most consistently undervalued — markets. In this episode of the REI Agent, he breaks down why Philly is quietly attracting buyers fleeing New York and DC, what really happens when you land on national TV, and the one marketing shift that lets a newer agent take over a market without ever sounding like a salesperson.
How does a foreclosure lawyer end up running a luxury real estate brand?
Brett’s road into real estate was anything but linear. He grew up around the business — both of his parents sold real estate, his mom pulled his dad into it, and two of his three brothers eventually followed. Like a lot of kids raised on dinner-table negotiations and phone calls that turned into arguments, Brett swore he would never do it. So he went to law school, passed the bar, and practiced for several years in New York City, focusing on bankruptcy, foreclosure, and real estate work for big banks.
The problem was that the job he imagined and the job he had were nothing alike. “I felt like I was a paper pusher and not really what I saw on TV,” he said. Stuck in an office doing the same work day after day, he burned out on the law and gravitated toward sales. Eventually he caved to the family trade, moved back to Philadelphia after about seven years in New York, and started selling real estate — initially at his parents’ brokerage before building his own brand.
That legal background turns out to be a genuine edge rather than a detour. Brett’s parents always told him he was good at arguing and should be a lawyer; he jokes it would have been the worst possible career for him. But the instincts that made him a decent litigator — reading people, negotiating hard, solving problems on the fly — are exactly the instincts that close deals. For agents who feel like their pre-real-estate career was a waste, Brett is a useful reminder that the skills usually transfer better than the résumé suggests.
Why is Philadelphia still undervalued — and who is buying there now?
Philadelphia is one of the largest cities in the country, yet it rarely gets the national real estate spotlight that New York, DC, or Miami command. Brett argues that relative anonymity is part of what keeps the city affordable. The fundamentals — historic housing stock, dense walkable neighborhoods, major institutions — would support far higher prices, but because Philly isn’t a media darling, valuations have stayed reasonable relative to comparable cities.
That dynamic is starting to shift, and the catalyst is migration out of more expensive metros. As interest rates and the broader economy have pressured buyers, Brett says people in New York and DC are increasingly looking for “the next option,” and Philadelphia keeps coming up as the answer. The host, who works further south near the DC market, has seen the same pattern from the other direction — government job losses and high costs pushing residents to look at what their money buys somewhere more affordable.
The biggest surprise for most agents is in the luxury segment. The assumption is that “luxury” and “affordable” don’t belong in the same sentence, but Brett insists Philadelphia breaks that rule. “If you want a luxury house or a luxury condo, Philly is definitely still affordable for luxury,” he explains, especially compared with the luxury markets in nearby major cities. For a buyer priced out of a New York or DC penthouse, the same budget in Philadelphia can deliver dramatically more home — a pitch that becomes more compelling every time another expensive metro gets more expensive.
Does getting on HGTV actually bring in clients, or just brand recognition?
Brett’s HGTV appearance didn’t come from a casting agency or a publicist. It came from volume — specifically, from posting on social media constantly about Philadelphia, his neighborhoods, and life in the city, with real estate woven in rather than shouted. A producer found him online, liked the way he made videos, and reached out because the show was filming in his area and needed an agent with the right client: a couple who couldn’t agree on a house. As it happened, Brett had a perfect fit — an engaged couple, not yet married, who genuinely disagreed about what to buy.
He went in expecting the payoff to be reputational. He did the show, in his words, mostly so he could say he’d been on it and pick up some brand recognition — a reasonable bet, since it’s fair to wonder whether TV exposure ever converts to actual transactions or just builds awareness. Then the math surprised him. The morning after the episode aired, he got a call from a family whose daughter was heading to school in Philadelphia. They had seen him on TV, didn’t have an agent, and wanted to buy a house. He describes it as the easiest sale of his career.
The honest takeaway is more nuanced than “go get on TV.” That single broadcast produced one excellent, low-effort client and, by Brett’s own account, not much else in the weeks since. The exposure paid for itself, but the durable lesson isn’t about television at all — it’s about the content engine that got him noticed in the first place. The videos were already working; HGTV was a high-profile amplifier of a system Brett was running every day on his own channels.
How different are luxury buyers and investors — and which is harder to work with?
Brett works both ends of the market, and the two client types could hardly be more different. Luxury buyers are typically coming to Philadelphia to live. They want a beautiful place to call home, they think in terms of a long-term lifestyle investment, and the emotional experience of the property matters as much as the price. Investors are the mirror image: they want the lowest possible acquisition cost and the best possible deal, with a plan to either hold the property as a long-term rental or flip it quickly.
Counterintuitively, Brett finds investors are often the tougher clients. Because they’re hunting purely for deals, they tend to work several agents at once, fishing for whoever happens to have the right property at the right moment. “People just emailing lowballs to every listing agent” is how the host summed it up, and Brett — who carries a lot of listings — confirmed he’s on the receiving end of plenty of them. Winning an investor’s business can come down to luck and timing as much as relationship: you have to have the right deal in hand exactly when they’re ready to move.
That doesn’t make investor business bad business — it makes it a different game with different rules. For agents trying to serve both segments, the practical implication is that luxury relationships are built slowly through trust and experience, while investor relationships are won transactionally by being the agent who consistently surfaces deals. Knowing which game you’re playing on any given lead keeps you from over-romancing a number-crunching investor or rushing a luxury buyer who needs to fall in love with the home.
What real estate investment strategies actually work in Philadelphia right now?
The small-multifamily playbook gets a lot of national hype, but Brett offers a grounded reality check for Philadelphia specifically. The clean, cash-flowing fourplex that investors dream about is genuinely hard to find in his market — if you can get one, that’s a win. Most of the available inventory is duplexes and triplexes, and even those aren’t plentiful, so everyone ends up competing over the same properties. His advice for buyers willing to take on more risk: push out into the areas that aren’t yet popular and bet they’ll develop, while understanding that some neighborhoods take far longer to turn than the optimists predict.
On the Section 8 question, Brett’s numbers are a useful corrective to strategies that work in other metros. The host described a DC investor acquiring properties at around $700,000 and converting them into Section 8 rentals — a model that only pencils out because DC voucher rents on a large converted property can be high enough to carry that basis. In Philadelphia, Brett does see Section 8 business, but it lives in a completely different price band: acquisitions in the $150,000 to $300,000 range, not anywhere near $700,000. The strategy exists; the math is just specific to the market.
His single best framework for finding upside is simple and repeatable: “I always tell investors, shoot for right next to the area that just became popular, because it’s probably going to be next.” Adjacency to proven appreciation is a lower-risk bet than guessing at a neighborhood from scratch — though Brett is candid that some Philly areas people have tagged as “up and coming” have stayed that way for years. As for the broader market, prices have held flat rather than falling, but time on market has clearly stretched. Homes that once sold in days now average roughly 25 days, and inventory is higher than a year ago. Brett doesn’t see the doom-and-gloom crash some agents in other regions fear, in part because the same outmigration from New York and DC keeps demand — and prices — supported.
What is the one marketing move every agent should steal?
Asked for his gold nugget, Brett didn’t hesitate, and it’s the throughline of his entire business: stop imitating the agents who built their success twenty-five years ago. What worked then doesn’t work now, and a newer agent who copies veteran tactics is competing on a field that no longer exists. To break in, you have to do things differently — and for Brett, “differently” means becoming the voice of your market through content that isn’t always, or even usually, about real estate.
His approach is to take over his market through local storytelling — making videos about neighborhoods, things to do, and the texture of life in Philadelphia. The insight is that people hire the agent they know and like, regardless of how they found them or what that agent actually said about housing. “I could say nothing about real estate ever and just probably pick up some clients,” he says — and his own pipeline, from the HGTV family to the leads his social media generates, backs it up. This matters most for the exact buyers moving to Philadelphia from New York and DC, who are already on YouTube researching the community before they ever contact an agent. Be the person answering those questions, and you become the obvious choice when they’re ready to buy.
“I could say nothing about real estate ever and just probably pick up some clients.” — Brett Rosenthal
When you find him, you’ll notice he practices exactly what he preaches: Brett is most active on Instagram as @topphillyrealtor, on TikTok as Brett Rosenthal Realtor, and on YouTube, and he hosts his own show, the In Your Home Podcast — part real estate, part Philadelphia, and part everything else.
The takeaway for relationship-driven agents
Brett Rosenthal’s career is a case study in building a business on trust and visibility rather than hard selling. A lapsed lawyer who found his footing by telling his city’s story, he’s proof that the most durable lead source isn’t a budget line — it’s being genuinely useful and genuinely present in your market, long before anyone is ready to transact. Whether you serve luxury buyers, investors, or both, the move is the same: show up consistently, share what makes your area worth living in, and let the relationships do the closing.
If this conversation sparked ideas for your own business, listen to the full episode of the REI Agent for the complete discussion, and hit subscribe so you never miss a new one. And when you’re ready to turn insights like these into a concrete growth plan, REI Agent Advisor at advisor.reiagent.com is built to help agents like you build a relationship-driven business that lasts. Until next time, keep building the life you want.
Full Episode Transcript
Welcome back to the REI Agent. My guest today is Brett Rosenthal, a top producing Philadelphia realtor with Compass and HDTV featured agent, who has built one of the most recognizable luxury real estate brands in the city. Brett works with both high-end buyers and savvy investors across Philadelphia, bringing deep local market knowledge and a premium client experience to one of America’s most historically rich and consistently undervalued real estate markets. In a city that rarely gets the national spotlight it deserves, Brett has built a business that thrives precisely because he understands what makes Philly different. Brett, welcome to the REI Agent podcast. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Are you a Phillies fan? I am. Baseball is probably my least favorite sport, but if I’m a baseball fan, I’m a Phillies fan. Some more Eagles or what are we? Eagles, Flyers, those are my two teams. I had to ask because my dad is from not too far from Philly and a diehard Phillies fan. Philly in general, but the Phillies are especially so. Yeah. Brett, what got you into this wild world of real estate? Where’d you start? It was a wild road to get here, but basically growing up my family, my parents both sold real estate. I guess it started with my mom and then she roped my dad into it. One of my brothers also does it, has done it for a long time. And I actually wanted to get into law, like prosecution. Dabbled in it for a while, loved it, didn’t make any money in it. Got into other aspects of law and I just like was bored out of my mind and hated my job. And eventually just got into sales and finally caved in and said, I’m going to do real estate also. That’s interesting. I was just having a conversation about a few people in my firm that were on track to be in law. I don’t think any of them actually went to school for it, but both of them had kind of decided, you know what, I don’t know if I want to go through all that. And one of them had worked at two different firms, not actually having a law degree, but realizing that it was just, I don’t think that was for him. Did you actually study to get your degree? Yeah, I did. I passed the bar exam, did it for a few years actually in New York City at the time. But yeah, and eventually just said, I’ve had enough. My parents always said I was really good at arguing and I should be a lawyer, but I think it would be the absolute worst career path for me. I think I would drown in that. Yeah, I think it was the sitting in an office all day doing the same thing over, at least the type of law that I was ended up doing, which was like bankruptcy and foreclosure and real estate for big banks. Okay. I mean, I felt like I was a paper pusher and not really what I saw on TV. Sure, sure. Okay, so then you decided, did you go to Philly then too? Is that where you grew up then? Is that where your family grew up? I grew up in Philly and outside of Philly. After I lived in New York for about seven years, I ended up coming back to Philly and I started real estate in Philly. Okay. So did you go with your parents’ firm, the same brokerage? Initially, initially I was, yes. Cool. I know a lot of people that had family, a lot of people I talked to that had family in the business were like, there’s no way I’m going to do that when they were kids. Did you have that kind of experience? I think, yeah, we used to sit at dinner and a phone just kind of rang in and we used to hear fights on the phone and arguments and negotiations. And I think none of us wanted to do it, but two of my three brothers and me and one of the others both ended up in real estate. So it didn’t work, but we didn’t want to. I don’t think either of us wanted to. Yeah, it’s funny how people end up, well, you know, the money is kind of good and it’s just kind of addicting, the thrill of the chase and you’re always kind of solving your problems. Brett, Philadelphia is one of the largest cities in the US, but consistently flies under the radar in national real estate media. Do you think that actually helps the market stay affordable relative to its fundamentals? And what would most agents be surprised to learn about the luxury segment there? Yeah, so I definitely think it, I think recently it’s changed a little once the economy and the interest rates and everything, because I think people in like New York and DC are starting to really move away from those areas and look for the next option, which is often Philly. As far as the luxury segment, the luxury segment, it’s always been here, but it’s probably, there’s more of the normal, but I think it’s way more affordable than the luxury market in any of the local bigger cities. So if you want a luxury house or a luxury condo, Philly is definitely still like affordable for luxury. That makes sense. I mean, you know, you think about, so I’m further south of DC area, and we’ve experienced people kind of, some of the job losses with the government job losses and some people kind of like trickling down to us, either wanting to move or being impacted by that in some regard. So I can see how if people are kind of wanting to get out of DC anyway, that could be a really good opportunity to say, hey, look what I could afford in Philly or, you know, in our case, the Shenandoah Valley, if they’re trying to escape the city. So that makes a ton of sense. Tell us about how, what led up to getting on HGTV and your experience there. So I guess by posting on social media so much and so often about so many different things other than real estate, but combining real estate, they found me on there and just reached out to me saying, we’re coming to your area. We’re looking for an agent that might have a client, like a couple that maybe don’t agree on different houses. And we’d like the way you make your videos and stuff. So do you have anyone, if you happen to have anyone, you’d be a good fit. And I just happened, it was good timing because I did have a perfect situation. And yeah, that’s how I got on. So you had to find people and be like, hey, listen, you guys got to play up your marital disputes here. We’ve got a great opportunity. So yeah, the couple was that they weren’t married. They were engaged to get married and they were looking for houses and they just disagreed naturally. So it was kind of a perfect fit. Yeah. That’s funny. Somebody in my firm also was, I think it was some sort of cabin show or something they were featured on. And in that show, they had already bought the house. And so they went and toured two other properties that were just, I think just maybe vacant or something. And then they toured the one that they also already bought. And then just decided that they wanted to buy that one. Is that how this one works as well? Am I ruining the magic for everybody? I don’t want to get sued or anything. You’re on the right track. Yeah. This is insider baseball, I guess. I don’t know how many agents watch HGTV religiously. I mean, yeah. I mean, personally, I did watch it years ago and then I totally forgot about it. And then when they approached me, I was like, oh, that’s still on. But it’s, yeah, it’s been there forever. I don’t know. I feel like when you’re in the trenches 24 seven, you kind of almost want a different source of entertainment. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so how did that exposure affect your business then? And what do you think the honest truth is about whether TV and media exposure converts to real clients or just mostly builds kind of a brand recognition? So I did it, I did it cause I thought it’d be good for brand recognition or just to like say I was on and stuff like that. Why not? But the very next morning I get a call. It’s this guy moving from, or his daughter was coming to school in Philadelphia and they wanted, they saw me on TV and they said, we don’t have a realtor. And we want to sell you last night. We want to buy a house. And it was the easiest sale I’ve ever had in real estate. Actually, I shouldn’t say it hasn’t closed yet but everything’s done. And it’s about to in a few weeks but it was all from being seen on TV. This was recent that this was aired? The show was on, I want to say about six weeks ago. Oh, okay. Yeah. And the next, the very next morning I got that lead. Since then there hasn’t been much but that one paid, yeah, paid off. Yeah, why not? I mean, it’s an awesome story in and of itself. I got a random question for you next. Where’s the best Philly cheesesteak in Philly? It’s like a question that nobody’s gonna agree with ever but I don’t eat, I’m like the worst. I probably, I’ve recently gotten better but I used to just not eat them just because they’re not healthy and I’m somewhat health conscious but I’ve, over the last couple, six months I’d say, I did try a couple. The one that I like the best is, there’s like two I like. One’s called Del Rossi’s and the other is called Skinny Joey’s. Both are good. Yeah. And you gotta get the marinara sauce on it. Is that the right way? No, no marinara sauce at all actually. Just tons of cheese. We have a local Philly bar. These two brothers, they started off with a tent at breweries and that kind of stuff, just grilling up Philly cheesesteaks and they have some pretty good ones. And I don’t get the marinara, the pizza or whatever. But yeah, always, next time I’m in Philly, I gotta have a real authentic one. Yeah, they’re good. And yeah, you can’t have those every day. You work both with luxury buyers and real estate investors in Philly. How different are those clients’ conversations and in a market with strong historic inventory and revitalizing neighborhoods, what do you see as the best opportunity for investors right now? So the difference is that the luxury people are basically coming there to live and wanna find a really nice place to live and make it really more like a home and a long, long-term investment where the investors are basically looking for cheap, the lowest price they can get, the best deal they can get to either long-term rent it or flip it pretty quickly. So it’s like two extremes basically. And honestly, I think the investors are sometimes more difficult because they just are fighting. They’re going to multiple, multiple different realtors to try to just find the best deal. And if you happen to have one at the time, they’re more like you gotta get lucky and find them at the right time. That makes sense, yeah. I mean, it can definitely be that way. People just emailing lowballs to every listing agent. Pretty much, and I have a lot of listings. I get a lot of them. Do you have, is there a good strategy you see working well in Philadelphia? I know that people are looking at co-living kind of things or midterm rentals is another kind of trending one. Is like the small multifamily game strong there? Like, can you get an affordable fourplex, for example, that cash flows right away? Or I mean, what kind of strategies would be available in Philadelphia? So fourplexes around here are hard to find. So if you do get one, if you can get one, it’s a good thing. Mostly here, it’s duplex or triplex. And there’s not like, I wouldn’t say there’s like a ton of them. So everybody’s fighting over the same type ones. And sometimes you have to like shoot out into the areas that aren’t as popular to try to get them and hope that they develop. And some areas have, and some areas are just really slow to do that. Okay. I’ve heard a number of people, actually had a guy from DC do a section eight strategy. And it kind of blew my mind that they were, he was picking up properties, that could be $700,000 before renovations and making it into a section eight property. Do you see much section eight business there as well in Philadelphia? I do get some, but never where they’re paying $700 just to acquire the property. Usually more in the 150 to three range. Yeah, that would be more what I would expect here. Yeah, I guess it’s because in those areas in DC, the vouchers would pay for, it would be pretty high, the rent would be a lot higher, especially if you could convert that property into like a five, six bedroom or whatever, then you can make the numbers work. But it just was, yeah, kind of mind blown because I was expecting, how are you finding like 150, $200,000 properties in DC that you can section eight? Right. But yeah. Yeah, so what are some of your, do you have any crazy stories about the luxury market? I mean, do you have you worked with, yeah, I don’t know, any other fighting couples? So I’ve, yeah, I’ve definitely, I have two good stories for you. The fighting couple was like a divorce situation where it was a really nice luxury house out in the suburbs of Philadelphia. And the guy basically called me after signing the listing contract. He’s like, I don’t care what you have to do with her, get this house sold. And I knew that was a bad sign to begin with. And then we actually put it under contract really fast, but the process of dealing with her to get it to the finish line was horrible to the point where like the day before the closing, she’s like, I don’t think I can get all this stuff out of here. Would you mind staying over and help me out? Because it was like an early closing. Early in the morning, I’m like, I can’t stay at your house. She like, was basically asking me to sleep there. So that was that. And then the most recent story, which is just kind of funny is in a, I should say a luxury or an upscale area out in Bucks County in Philadelphia, I went on a listing appointment. It was actually last week. The guy called me up the day before I went out, walked in the house. It was a strange situation. He was basically up in his bedroom. And he gave me a quick tour of the house and the entire house was just falling apart. There was like, it smelled like people were going to the, or pets, he had a couple of pets that were like just going to the bathroom all over the house. There was like chicken bones and chicken wings all over the house. And he’s walking me through the house, telling me how like the kitchen, renovated kitchen. I mean, the kitchen was like falling apart. And then he took me out to, there was a pool and he goes, pool is swimmable. And the pool had like mold and like things were coming out from it. And there was like rats on the ground. And anyway, so he signed a listing contract with me and I listed it later that night with the best I could do with the pictures that I was able to get because it wasn’t worth getting better pictures. Within an hour, I got like four different phone calls from four different listing agents who said they signed a listing contract with him also. And another person who said they actually have an agreement of sale that he agreed to sell the house. And so I took it down. The next day I started getting more calls from people, he must’ve signed like seven contracts and probably just lost his mind. I don’t know what he was doing, but it was interesting. I never saw anything like, and it was on such a nice street. It was just the one house on the nicest street that was like destroyed. Wow. On your average day when you’re bouncing around between appointments, showings, listing appointments, going to the office to work, et cetera, like how long are you driving? What’s your commute between point A to point B? Do you stay kind of in certain areas? I’d say most of my work is in the city of Philly. So I’m generally never driving more than a half hour in the city. If I have to go to some of the counties, it could be 50 minutes, I’d say. Okay, that’s not so bad. Yeah, and some days are nothing. It’s just all in house or in an office. Other days are point to point to point. Yeah, I could just imagine if you have, with traffic and stuff as well. Traffic can be bad, yeah. Could take a little bit. Yeah, what are some of the undiscovered gems of, like are there any good neighborhoods that you would say are, yeah, people might overlook that they should consider? I feel like that’s the key, finding the uncovered gems. And right now, I don’t know if there’s one specific one, but I always tell investors, shoot for right next to the area that just became popular because it’s probably gonna be next. And then there’s a couple areas in Philly where people think that they’re gonna be up and coming, but they’ve just taken forever. And it’s if you can wait by there, but it might take longer than a couple of years. So I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s one particular area. Some of the areas have gotten pretty saturated already. How’s the market faring? Have you seen any decreased declines in prices? The prices have stayed the same, but the time on the market has definitely gone up. And I think there is more listings now than there was like a year ago. So things are getting listed. And I mean, a couple of years ago, they were gone within days. Now it’s like 20 some days is like the average, 25 days I think is the average. Yes, I think our days in the market’s a little bit faster, but we, I mean, because we’re small, small market, there’s not a ton of options, but we, yeah, our median sales price has been, I think, flat for like two years now. So we haven’t seen any decreases. It’s interesting to talk to different people throughout the country. Some places are like, it’s doom and gloom, like this is gonna be the worst crash we’ve ever seen. And luckily not most of them. Most of the people I talked to are not like that, but. Yeah, I think Philly is not like that specifically because like DC and New York, the prices are just crazy and people are leaving. So for now, at least the prices have stayed or gone up even, or even gone up slightly. Sure. Brett, what gold nuggets do you have for our listeners? Um, I don’t know. I think if you’re an agent, don’t listen to what the agents from like 25 years ago or have been successful for 20 years are doing because it’s different today than it was then. And to get started, you gotta do things differently. It doesn’t always have to be strictly talking about real estate. Basically like take over your market as far as like marketing and making videos about your area and different areas, things to do because people, no matter how they find you or if they like you, they’re gonna use you. Whether you said one thing about real estate or not, I could say nothing about real estate ever and just probably pick up some clients. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think especially people relocating to an area, they’re probably on YouTube and all those kinds of things out about the community. So that makes a ton of sense. Brett, what about a favorite book? Do you have one that you think is fundamental everybody should read or one that you’re currently just enjoying? So because I think I went to college and then law school and read 8 trillion books because I had to read them, I’m not a book reader. I feel like I never have time to read them. I don’t read them. So like what I read is like, I go on the internet and I read a ton of stuff about the local area, about real estate in general, but there’s not like one book that I like have picked up in ages and say everybody should read. Sure. I’d have to write a book or something. That’s my next thing. There you go. Yeah. And Brett, where can people find you? Are you on social media, Instagram, YouTube, et cetera? Yeah, I’m on all of them. I’d say the easiest way is Instagram. I’m at top Philly realtor or on TikTok, Brett Rosenthal realtor. I’m also on YouTube and I have a podcast called the In Your Home Podcast, which is part about real estate, part about Philadelphia and a little about everything else. Awesome. Well, Brett, thanks so much for being on the show. It’s been a lot of fun talking to you. Thank you. No, thank you. Have a good day. Thanks for listening to the REI Agent. If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe to catch new shows every week. Visit REIAgent.com for more content. Until next time, keep building the life you want. All content in the show is not investment advice or mental health therapy. It is intended for entertainment purposes only.
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